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Sunday, August 26, 2012
Chapters 15 - 19
These chapters had many social ramifications and scientific ramifications. I was saddened by the care Henrietta's children received after her death. What are your thoughts about the children and their feelings about her cells being "Immortal"?
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I believe that the children deserved much more than they received. They received nothing from anybpdy after knowing whose cells the HeLa cells were. They deserved better living conditions and better treatment by their family. They also deserved some sort of payment from the researchers culturing their mother's cells.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the children themselves felt they were owed something, especially since they lost their mother to a horrible disease in cancer and the doctors and researchers took their mothers "Immortal" cells and turned the HeLa cells into a multi-million dollar business without anyone in the family knowing. They felt they should get something in return. The children and family were totally in the dark about everything that went on with their mother's cells -- possibly leading to Joe's and Deborah's behavior over the years.
I definitely believe that what happened to Joe and Deborah in their early years contributed to behavior over the years. I mean I wouldn't be very open to people after that happening to me. I definitely wouldn't be open to talking about the situation that landed them in the environment of them being abused. They had plenty of questions about their mother when they were young so when they got older and people continuously asked about the HeLa stuff I'm sure it brought them to think about that painful past.
DeleteI thoroughly enjoyed these few chapters; mostly because the traumatic experiences Henrietta's children ensued were riveting and empathetic. The fact that the young children were motherless were already post traumatic, however the hardships dealt with child molestation, physical abuse and violence proved to be beyond hostile.
ReplyDeleteI find it deplorable that Henrietta's children were oblivious of the fame her mother's cells had gained and the large profit scientists and doctors had made from it. I think it's unjust that the Lacks children lived in such a lamentable and fierce environment, when they could have been living a comfortable perhaps lavish lifestyle, if they had known of the famous immortal cells of their mother. The children perhaps felt they deserved something that is at least rewarding or good, in their eyes, considering they have been completely ignored by the science community.
Exactly. But, instead of them living that lavish lifestyle, they had to resort to their normal lifestlyle. Just think of how different their lives would have been during this time if they would have known of their mother's cells and received something in return for the researchers taking Henrietta's cells. They would probably be millionaires. However it did not work out that way, unfortunately. They definitely did deserve to know of Henrietta's "Immortal" cells.
DeleteTheir lives certainly been different in that way, however if it had happened they would have never known they people who they did along the way such as Bobbette. Even without the money a couple of the siblings became relatively successful in their own fields of business and serving in the military and being honorably discharged. Would the abuse still have occurred? That is debatable, but i personally think it would have. So all in all its one of those things that if you continue to look back in hindsight and keep analyzing what went wrong and how is this happened everything would have been all lollipops and sunshine, people tend to not really recognize the positive aspects of things workings itself out like it did
DeleteI think it really was just unacceptable the way the children were treated after Henrietta died. I mean it wasn't enough that Ethel treated them, especially Joe. But Galen's molestation of Deborah?? Just shameful. I also believe since this was around the time of the factory industry's boom of the HeLa cells, if they had been allowed some compensation then the children could have been living in a better place and didn't have to grow up hungry. Also give them the ability to move away from the abuse.
ReplyDeleteA problem I was kind of wondering about was when Day allowed them to do the partial autopsy did that also give them the permission to collect the cells? or was that permission strictly observation of her body?
I was particularly interested in the whole somatic cell fusion aka cell sex thing. A big discovery for the whole scientific field. They learned more about genetics in this way. Also in the science related references in this book I did believe the German experiments were just mindblowingly unethical but it didn't make what the american scientists were doing any better. I mean injecting people with cancer cells without them knowing??? That's ridiculous. But yeah I guess that's all I had to say about these chapters. I'm just getting overwhelmingly frustrated at the situations in this book.
I feel that Day did not know what he was signing when he said they could do her autopsy. A similar situation would be when then originally did a biopsy of the mass near her cervix. She did not give them permission to take her cells and grow the original HeLa, the doctors just did as they pleased and got away with it.
DeleteOh definitely; the Nuremberg Trials were treacherous as were the scientific experiments the Americans did as well. I think they were just comparing Southam's actions to those of Nazi doctors. It is indeed unethical. ''Every human has an inalienable right to determine what should be done with his own body. These patients then had a right to know the contents of the syringe.'
DeleteWhat has touched me through the entire book is the treatment of the children of Henrietta throughout their lives. Joe especially endured senseless abuse and Deborah tormented by molestation almost daily. For me, this brings into question the Nature versus Nurture debate. Were the children born naturally able to succumb to being the victims of such violent crimes, or were they trained to be accepting of it? Or was it by chance that they became victims, just simply dealt a bad hand in life? I think that the children were raised to think such things were ok, and, namely with Joe, became violent because they were made to endure this cruel abuse. Joe would not have been born violent because he was in his mother at the time she had cancer, as the book presumes.
ReplyDeleteHad they received compensation for the factory production of their mother's cells, the family would be able to afford things like food and eyeglasses. Joe would not have become a public menace, and the state would not be paying for his jail time.
I partially disagree with your statement. These children were deeply scarred emotionally by their constant abuse on account of Ethel and Galen, but i dont believe that any amount of money could have washed that deep deep sorrow and pain of abuse on top of losing their mother away.
DeleteI really enjoyed these chapters because it lapsed back and forth between the more emotional, personal world of the scientist and the family; and the science behind the HeLa cells. I really like how Skloot uses the book not to just tell people about the life of Henrietta, but all of the lives that she and her cells encountered. These chapter really plucked at my heartstring, by showing te hardships the the children encountered after the death of Henrietta. I was appalled by the abuse that was inflicted upon the children by Ethel, especially Joe. He was literally abused so much that his pain moved inward as continuous anger along with the loss of their mother on top of that. Then there was the situation between Galen and Deborah. I couldn't believe what i was reading. He repeatedly, sexually abused Deborah (AT 10 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!), and her father stood there and watched as Galen beat her bloodied. It didm't stop with Galen either; her COUSINS pursued her and they tried to rape her as well. Luckily, Deborah had Bobbette as a source of empowerment and advice to help her deal with her problems.
ReplyDeleteI really admired the Jewish doctors at the Jewish Chronic Disease Hospital who valiantly denied administering cancerous cells to patients without warning them of the risks that followed such a procedure. They knew that such experiments in "the land of the free" was tantamount to the evil experiment of the Nazis in the Nuremberg trails where the sewed children together to achieve a sort of siamese twin. I was also taken aback when i read that Chester Southam had injected patients with cancer in the arm with cancerous cells(without their knowledge) and they turned into tumors, and one lady had the cancer metastasized into one woman's lymph nodes. I can believe that these doctors are recognized as pioneers of science when they are an affront to all scientists and doctors who made discoveries with respect to morals. I am so happy about the discoveries made through the use of HeLa cells since they have healed the people in my family, but i am so conflicted by the way these advancements were made.
I too admired the Jewish doctors, and how they stood up for whats right. I think they did this because the knew it was right, and because they remembered what happened to their people. I think if tumors popped up on my arm after my doctor injected me, i would question him a lot. And if I found out what he did, i would definitely sue him !
DeleteI completely agree with you. I was too shocked and appalled at the conditions the Lacks children had to be put in and what they went through. The fact the the abuse put on Joe, pushed him to such a mean and nasty personality saddened me. And what Deborah had to go through just made things worse. I was glad Bobbette was there to give her words of wisdom and encourage her to stay in school and not to let any of her cousins mess around with her. I admired the Jewish doctors also. They are the only doctors that I've come across in the book so far that refused to administer such injections without notifying their patients of the risks. Henrietta's doctor's could've learned a thing or two from them.
DeleteThroughout these past few chapters, Skloot has done a wonderful job by captivating the reading not only with the scientific background of the story, but also in conjunction with the emotional aspect of the family members. As the reader goes along, the obvious question that arises is what would have transpired had the company who made millions of dollars producing cells, had given a small percentage, even five to ten percent, to the family of the person of whom the cells originated from? Would Joe have been as psychologically troubled as he became? Would Deborah have avoided the physical, sexual, and even psychological abuse from both Ethel and Galen?
ReplyDeleteYes it would have helped them financially and given them a better place live and helped the children with their hearing disabilities, but I honestly feel as if that even with all of this, the abuse would have continued. Even with the new steady flow of income that it produced, the mindsets of Ethel and Galen would have not changed as their psyches were already molded.
One thing i did find interesting was that the right of consent was not included in the original Hippocratic Oath and had to be implemented two years after World War Two. Ir befuddles me as to why this would not be originally thought of to require the consent of the patient before testing.
I like your comment about the Hippocratic oath. That creed was made thousands of years ago, but perhaps the makers felt that the patients had certain implied rights. However, I believe that these rights should have been specified more clearly, such as the case in the US Constitution. While men have certain inalienable rights, they are still outlined in this document.
DeleteHenrietta's children had hard lives. They were physically,mentally,or sexually abused. Deborah was repeatedly sexually abused, by a man that she looked at as her 'father'. Their aunt was abusive to the kids. She did not feed them, and beat them often. A childs childhood is important, if something tragic happens during this time; a child could be completely changed.As I read the different stories about each child, I felt so sorry for them. No child should have to go through, what they went through. I believe that what they went through shaped them into who they are today.
ReplyDeleteDr.Southam was some type guy... He researched on people without their consent. He injected patients with cancer, without giving the patients the slightest hint of side effects. The fact the he said he wasnt aware of the Nuremberg Code, was a his way of saying he was above the law. Being ignorant of the law shouldn't exempt you from it. Ignorance is not bliss. Dr.Southam saw the tumors on the patients, and seemed to not worry about them. Though he removed the tumors, he probably didnt even tell the patients why they had the tumors. I feel respect towards the inmates that volunteered for research.Although that can take back what they did, they are trying to make up for it. I applaud them for that. It takes a stronng person to get intentionally injected with cancer.
I completely agree with your take on patient consent. I feel as if the doctors performing these experiments should have received far worse punishment for what they did. Today, doctors would get sued out of everything they owned for something like this. I also agree with your respectful insight on the volunteer prisoners. It took real men/women and bravery to do what they did.
DeleteI truly enjoyed these past few chapters. I was shocked at such hardships that the Lacks children had to go through, with all of the abuse done to them by Ethel, especially Joe. And Deborah, who was molested and sexually abused by Galen whom she viewed as a father figure. It must have been so hard on her to have to live with such a thing. I was also a bit sad to read about Deborah's growing curiosity with her mother and sister Elsie and how she'd never get the chance to know them. The Lacks children have been through so much to the point that at a certain point in the book, I was beginning to feel like I was reading a drama series. But then I realized everything stated was fact and actually did happen and was I just shocked and horrified all at the same time although, it did pull me further into the book.
ReplyDeleteI was also interested in the tests that Dr. Southam would conduct on both cancer patients and people with out cancer to see if HeLa cells actually gave people cancer. I was surprised that prison inmates actually volunteered for such tests, knowing that it could be potentially dangerous. The fact that some prisoners volunteered as a way to pay back for their crimes was interesting. I was actually surprised with the results. I wasn't expecting the inmates' bodies to be able to fight off the cancer or for the cells to actually increase the inmates' immunity to cancer. I honestly was expecting some form of cancer to spread after I read about tumors growing on the arms of the inmates tested. It was a part in the novel that really stood out to me and a great breakthrough that just kept proving the significance of HeLa cells.
yea i feel that the expiriments conducted by Dr. Southam was dangerous and should have been handled diffrently he completly ignored the code it is is ethical reponsiablity to inform the patients of the risk and know abou the laws presnt. today if that was to happen the docotr would be sued, fired or even prosecuted for this. i feel like the prsoner saftey was put at risk even though the tumors were removed i feel that he neglect them as people.
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ReplyDeleteI found the combining procedures of HeLa cells and mouse cells very intriguing. The fact that this was even possible blows my mind. It leads me to think that scientists really can create half-human half-animal beings by simply combining each's cells. The fact that all of this was done back in the fifties makes me wonder what kind of crazy experiments and creations scientists around the world are conducting and creating today, especially by using HeLa cells.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the experiments done using HeLa cells led to answered questions regarding cancer, I feel very strongly that each and every patient should have been informed to the fullest extent exactly what was being done to their bodies. I feel that each doctor, reseacher, and anyone else involved in those cases deserved every punishment, and more, set upon them. It didn't matter whether or not those research patients were already sick or not, the research was still extremely dangerous. This case makes me thankful for the laws of medicinal practice and research set in place today.
Chapters 15-19 i really enjoyed but i feel like something could have been done to save Henrietta if the doctors would have been honest from the start. i think its good that her cells are being used to cure so many diseases now . i dont agree with them injecting her cells into people arms because it gave them cancer now putting there lives in danger, but it was amazing that their immune system faught it off
ReplyDeletei think that when the doctore got ready to inject everyone they should have told them about the cells and asked them did they still want to get injected. every doctor should have had there licenses taken away and punished for that. Even though the prisoners didnt know anything about HeLa cells i like that they volunetered to do that they were trying pay back for the horrible things they did.If there was laws back then none of it would have happen.
While no amount of compensation would have made the pain of the loss of a mother as well as the scarring of constant abuse go away, it would have put food in the children of Henrietta Lacks' mouths. They would have been able to get hearing aids and glasses, and generally be better off with this money gained from the billions made from these cells.
ReplyDeleteThe cruel treatment of the Jews during the Nuremberg trials was inhumane and unimaginable. I'm very glad this isn't a picture book, because the images would have been too graphic for even a pg-13 rated movie. And with little to no anesthesia, imagine the pain those people would have been suffering through. Simply horrifying.
these chapters were kinda hard to read it was already hard on her children that there mother died but to have to be physical and sexually abused by someone you called family thats beyound horrble. i cant imagine how they even dealt with that. on top of that they had no idea that there mothers cell were being mass produce for some else gain. the emotinal scares and after effect of all this must have been unbearable for her kids to deal with. i feel that if the children and family were to be paid for there loss back then that her children and family could have had a better life with more option to get better care and to get medicine, ear aids and other things. still to this today no amount of money can make years of suffering vanish that will last for generations.
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